Posts by Cold Steel

10

Bible Study to Service: How Long?

by Cold Steel in

someone agrees to a bible study and it goes very well.

the investigator answers all the questions correctly and shows a great interest in the message.

how long does it usually take before he/she is urged to do field work?

Cold Steel

These are some of the most fascinating posts I've read so far, and too many people are telling the same story. At some point there is rebellion. At what point do they begin trying to control your life? And is it common that they try to interfere in aspects of your life like washing machine soap, where you have services such as dry cleaning and what sort of music you listen to. How would they know these things, anyway? Do they snoop? Doesn't anyone resist and just say, "Nah, I like this soap better," or "Nah, I like the way they starch my knickers at my place," or, "I found a way to copy all the songs to a CD except for 'Rise, Dark Lord and Do My Biidding!"

Is there nothing they feel is beyond their ken? And if not, when does one go from investigator to someone they feel they can control? In other words, when do they start butting in? As far as I see it, no ecclesiastical group should ever seek such authority over the types of things people have told me about.

38

What IS the meaning and purpose of EVIL?

by Monsieur in

reading about the massacre of the jw family in mexico brought up all kinds of questions again.. from the standpoint of someone who doesn't in believe in 'god' or a 'conventional' god,.

what is the meaning and purpose of evil?.

how does it relate to the overall universe and its balance?

Cold Steel

As much as atheists hate to admit it, if there is no God, there is no moral significance to good an evil. For if there is no law, there is no sin; and if there is no sin, there is no righteousness or unrighteousness, and thus no happiness (for happiness cannot exist outside of righteousness) and, consequently, no punishment or misery and, lastly, no God.

Evangelicals try to say that God created righteousness, and then his creations created evil. They fail to understand that one cannot exist without the other; for righteousness cannot exist without evil and it also cannot exist without God.

The one thing that evolution cannot hard wire us for is a knowledge of good and evil, because that requires an intelligence that's not hooked into survival. Evolution, as seen by Darwin, accounts only for instincts related to survival. And if survival meant more than anything else there could not and would not be self sacrifice, compassion, empathy, honesty, or virtue. There also would be no justice, for animals completely lack the concept. They may sacrifice themselves for their young, but only because it adds to the survival of the species. Not because they have a sense of nobility.

Survival rests solely on what one can get away with. Had Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and others been able to get away with what they did and the killing and torture of so many millions of people, then, if there were no God, they would have no one to answer for other than themselves. And it wouldn't have been for good or evil; it just would have been. A million years from now, no one would even remember it or care. And because there is no God, there would be no justice, and if no justice, no punishment. Thus, the actions of all people would be neither good nor evil because good and evil would merely be abstract terms.

Finally, good and evil could not exist except in an environment of free agency. There would be no virtue in forcing men to do good and to desist from doing evil. If God were to force people not to murder or to harm their fellow men, or animals, then he would rob them of free agency, and that he cannot and will not do. He may, on occasion, protect his people and his prophets, but on occasion he's also let evil run its course. Just before Jesus ascended into heaven, he told the apostles they were going as sheep among the wolves and he offered them no hope of victory in this life because he knew of the coming apostasy. In fact, I know of only one apostle who was not murdered for the cause of Christ, and that was John.

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10

Bible Study to Service: How Long?

by Cold Steel in

someone agrees to a bible study and it goes very well.

the investigator answers all the questions correctly and shows a great interest in the message.

how long does it usually take before he/she is urged to do field work?

Cold Steel

Someone agrees to a Bible study and it goes very well. The investigator answers all the questions correctly and shows a great interest in the message. How long does it usually take before he/she is urged to do field work? I've been interested in this aspect of the religion and also wondered where the notion of church members doing missionary work comes from? It was never required in the ancient church nor is it required in any modern Christian church that I know of.

What if someone just wants to be counted as a member, but continues to see his/her "worldly" families for family reunions or keep the worldly friends he'd made before even joining the Society? Or suppose a JW met someone at work that shared his interest in, say, skydiving, hunting, target shooting, white water rafting and so forth?

On another thread, someone said people with beards shouldn't be allowed to participate in certain meeting activities. I've also read where members also participated in skits. Is this something children do, or does everybody do it? If one just attends Sunday meetings, can he/she be formally disciplined, or is it simply a counseling situation?

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35

So what if they were wrong?

by DS211 in

this is a reply ireceived from a poster on another forum.

"actually the vast majority of interpretations of prophecy are absolutely spot on.. .

people harp on over this and that that was wrong 50 years ago, but today jehovah's witnesses have all the bible's prophecies pretty much figured out in their entirety.. .

Cold Steel

When one questions prophecy without indicting the Watchtower leaders, is there any attitude adjustment?

For example, if one asked who the two "witnesses" were in Revelation 11, and which temple John was measuring in the same chapter, would anyone attempt to answer them? Or is there a biblical commentary that's available that attempts to answer questions like that? The thing about prophecy is that a Christian can read Isaiah 53 and clearly see Jesus as the fulfillment; however, Jewish scholars read the same text and say, no, Isaiah was speaking of a nation, not the Messiah. Since the Bible was not broken into chapters until much later, many people don't read what comes before. In Isaiah 52, the prophet states, " Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider."

Putting the above at the beginning of the next chapter certainly would have put it more in context and show that Isaiah is referring to a person. Instead, when one begins reading Isaiah 53, it states: "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." But who is "him" and "he"? If you hadn't read the chapter before or weren't aware of how the continuity worked, it would be a mystery.

The Governing Body seeks to interpret some prophecies, but then ignores many others entirely. This goes beyong what is right, or accurate, and what is inaccurate. The Society teaches that Armageddon will be the final conflagration, but it ignores other tiny details such as where it would be and who it would involve. Its teachings on Gog and Magog are equally as tenuous. Ezekiel spends pages speaking of it in detail (chapters 38-39), and yet the Society relegates it to little more than footnotes and it's not clear where, when and if it's happened. Is it the same battle that's described by Zechariah (12-14) and John (Rev. 11-12), when he speaks of Armageddon? All speak of a final assault on Jerusalem, all speak of a last minute salvation by God; and all speak of an unprecedented time of peace afterwards and a permanent reconciliation between Judah and Yahweh.

Many Christians have made the connections between all three accounts. It's one reason the Jews decided to hold out against the Romans, hoping it would be then that they would be rescued. To their surprise, the Romans soundly defeated them and scattered them to the ends of the earth. Before Christ's return, the Jews had to begin returning to the lands of its inheritance, and this has happened. But Bethel was completely wrong about the return of the Jews, the building of its temple and the rise of the Beast and the kingdom that will eventually try to destroy the remnant of Judah. It's that generation that will not pass away before the Lord returns. Not 1914. Already there's a major move to restore the Caliphate in Turkey, and if it's the kingdom that was, is not, and is, then it will be the place from which the Antichrist will emerge. In short, prophecy is multi-faceted and intertwined, and you can't just cherry pick the points you like and ignore the rest.

Here's Joel Richardson speaking about the Antichrist. I don't endorse it...it's evangelical, but it has some interesting views and am just throwing it out as an interesting point of view, and I think he may be on to something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck0hefiwo8A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIK49zZZ9Rw

6

WT and the Wizard of Oz

by Junebuggie in

off to see the wizardmany will easily recall the story of "the wizard of oz.

" curiously, we can gain some insights about spiritual authority from this popular tale.

dorothy, the scarecrow, the tin man and the cowardly lion go to the wizard because they believe he has the power to give them what they need.

Cold Steel

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Nope, he's obviously the decendent of
Ada and Evil Knieval.

25

What have the 'myriads of angels' ever done for humanity?

by yadda yadda 2 in

think about it, myriads upon myriads of do-nothing, never lift a finger angels floating around, ignoring all the untold pain and suffering on this planet for thousands of years.

what have all these millions of angels ever done for anyone?

occasional random materialisations in ancient israelite times?.

Cold Steel

What if "angels" are simply people who have not yet been born, or are people who have lived and died and not been resurrected, or have lived and died and are resurrected? When John bowed down to the angel in Revelation thinking he was Christ, the angel lifted him up and said, "See thou do it not, for I am thy fellowservant, and of of thy brethren the prophets." So if this angel had been a prophet in life, perhaps angels and people are the same.

105

New Article on BEARDS and Attire of Jehovah's Witnesses

by jwfacts in

i have had requests to add an article about beards and jehovah's witnesses.

it is interesting that there is virtually no statement that says a witness cannot have a beard, yet universally they do not have beards.

i have scoured quotes from all the threads on jwn, all references to beard on the cd watchtower library, and copies of elders letters that i have.

Cold Steel

Me: "What's wrong with a beard?"

Elder: "Could you trust someone who wears a beard?"

How do you answer that?

Me: "I trust JESUS. He has a beard. And the scriptures teach that HE is in the "express image" of the FATHER. Most of the apostles, if not all of them, had beards, and I would trust THEM.... Under such circumstances, I would trust people with beards more than I'd trust people without beards. But, then, Judas had a beard, too, most likely. What about you, elder? Could you trust someone with a beard?

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Well, you guys have been busy, and there's too much here to respond to, but I'll try to hit a few before turning in.

First, do you think I'm making this stuff up on the Sabbath? Behold, from the American Heritage Dictionary. And yes, the Mormons claim revelation, and a number of places in those revelations, the Lord called Sunday both "The Lord's Day" and the "Sabbath." Think as you wish concerning those revelations, or Joseph Smith.

Regarding continental drift, you might be interested to know that Joseph Smith was one of the earliest proponents of that theory. I have no idea when it occurred, but the real question was whether the Garden of Eden could have been in the landmass that is now Missouri? Well, the real issue is whether the Garden of Eden was anywhere, ever? Since if there is no Adam, there is no need of Jesus, then we hold that yes, there was an Adam and there was an Eden. My point is that Missouri is no more or less ridiculous than any other place in the world. If anyone would know where it was, it would be God. So Missouri? Africa? Babylon? Who cares?

Randy, your views are well stated; however, touching on translation, a translation is just taking the meaning of one document and changing it into a language that can be read by those who don't know the original. If the Book of Mormon is an actual historical document, as we claim, then the volume has been translated correctly. Again, Joseph Smith never needed to produce such a document to gain credibility for restoring the church. He could have saved a lot of trouble by just claiming the revelations. And as for the belief that the Book of Mormon prophets taught one thing and that doctrines later revealed more advanced doctrines, yes, that's true. Like the New Testament, the Book of Mormon was a record of the fundamental gospel taught to man. But it was the Doctrine & Covenants that revealed the doctrines lost over time. Plus, the Book of Mormon also revealed quite a background of necessary doctrines. For example, some critics argue that the Book of Mormon can't be true because its prophets offer up sacrifices, yet there is no evidence of Levites being present. But Alma 13 describes the presence of the higher priesthood, termed the Melchizedek priesthood, which held the keys of the lower priesthood and, hence, the authority. Many things -- technical things -- that Joseph Smith had to keep up with, and this was just one of them.

Finally, words like "Bible" and "hour" are not anachonisms. A bible is simply a collection of books, scrolls or codices, and an hour is simply a segment of time. If you view the book as a translation, you'll understand it more fully if you don't get hung up in the technicalities. It's not a translation in the same sense the Bible is. If the text said "King James Version of the Bible," that would be one thing. But the prophets knew that a bible -- that is, a small collection of books -- would be used in our day as our canon of scripture, and they called them whatever the Hebrew or reformed Egyptian words were appropriate.

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Outlaw: Other Odd Mormon Beliefs

Congratulations on the lamest post of the month! You managed to get...let's see...oh, yes...uh, only ONE of these correct!

Dinosaur fossils are to test our faith, and likely came from matter left over from past destroyed planets that were used/recycled to create Earth.

Nope. Not so. We have many doctrines that others don't have, such as belief in the premortal existence of mortal spirits, but no one I know believes that garbage about dinosaur bones. It's not Mormon doctrine, but comes from the radical Protestent teachings. If dinosaurs lived in an earth, they would have been resurrected on that Earth. All animals on all planets gain resurrection just as the animals we see on Earth.

God is a resurrected, extra terrestrial, exalted human male who lives on a planet near a star called Kolob.

Here's what the book states:

AND I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees. And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it. And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord's time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years.

And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night.

See Book of Abraham, chapter 3 in Pearl of Great Price..

The Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight, so all dates, sleepovers, or other activities by youth or single people need to end by midnight or else you won't have protection or guidance against the temptations of the devil.

Crapola.

There are people living on the moon. LINK They dress much like Quakers and they are tall, many standing seven feet tall or more. One day we will send missionaries to teach them the gospel.

Crapola. The old moonmen thing is pretty old and only appears in the urban legends section. It's only source comes from the diary of a kid who was 11 years old at the time he met the prophet. No one else heard Joseph Smith make the remark, and it most certainly is a very tall story by any standard!